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November 8 and 9, 2004
Sublette County Library
Pinedale, Wyoming
Senator Delaine Roberts, Co-Chairman
Representative Mike Baker, Co-Chairman
Senator Tex Boggs
Senator Bruce Burns
Senator Keith Goodenough
Senator John Hanes
Representative Dave Edwards
Representative Steve Harshman
Representative Jerry Iekel
Representative George McMurtrey
Representative Layton Morgan
Representative Mick Powers
Representative Jim Slater
Representative Bill Thompson
Dave Gruver, Assistant Director
Please refer to
Appendix 1 to review the Committee Sign-in Sheet
for a list of other individuals who attended the meeting.
Co-Chairman Roberts called the meeting to order at 8:30 a.m.. The following sections summarize the Committee proceedings by topic. Please refer to Appendix 2 to review the Committee Meeting Agenda.
Co-Chairman Baker moved approval of the minutes from the June Committee meeting. The motion was seconded and passed.
Co-Chairman Baker explained that the Committee had been provided a bill draft (05 LSO 216.W2) on a proposed natural resource trust fund. The staff comments incorrectly referenced differences from the Governor's proposal. The differences were not from the Governor's proposal, but should have referenced differences from the proposal presented by Mr. Magagna at the last meeting. A revised bill had been prepared for the Committee.
Alternative funding for state parks and historic sites
Phil Noble, Director of the Department of State Parks and Cultural Resources and Pat Green, administrator of the division of state parks within the Department introduced the subject of alternative funding for state parks and historic sites.
Joe Bonds, from the Department, reviewed the written material provided earlier to the Committee concerning current facility deficiencies at state parks and historic sites. (Appendix 3) He explained the majority of the deficiencies are related to roadwork at the parks and sites. There were approximately $29.8 million in deficiencies at those facilities. Since that assessment about $1 million in deficiencies have been addressed. Mr. Bonds also addressed proposed "amenities" that might be added at state parks and sites based upon requests from the public and additional authority granted to the department under one of the proposed bill drafts.
Bill Westerfield, also from the Department, addressed the issue of enhancements in more detail. The Department is suggesting an additional $25 million in enhancements. Without any increase in fees the enhancements would take an estimated 30 years to accomplish. The Department is suggesting higher user fees in order to more quickly implement the enhancements. . To move the enhancement schedule to a 16 year process would require a 100% user fee increase. Public surveys have indicated support for higher fees for enhancements according to the Department. The proposal would allow for fees to be set by the Department rather than by statute. Mr. Westerfield spoke to the criteria that would be considered in setting those fees by rule. He also stated that proposed draft 05 LSO 185.W2 would allow the Department to retain its fees from leases and concessions.
In response to Committee questions, Mr. Westerfield stated that if the State charges nonresidents more than twice the amount charged residents for admissions fees, it will lose approximately $2 million in federal funds. In response to Committee questions, it was noted that if the visitor centers were removed from the list of enhancements, the time line would be about 9 years with a 100% increase. Senator Boggs questioned the ability to increase fees and have a continuous appropriation and the amount of autonomy being considered. Mr. Green noted that he was comfortable with either additional oversight by the Legislature or the Parks and Cultural Resources Commission than called for in the bill draft.
LSO staff summarized 05 LSO 180.W3. (Appendix 4) The bill removes statutorily set fees and would allow the Department to set fees by rules. The bill would also allow the Department to expend the fees based upon a continuous appropriation. The final aspect of the bill would be to allow the Department to establish additional amenities at the parks and historic sites; the additional amenities are to be set at an amount which makes the amenity self sustaining.
Senator Hanes moved the bill be sponsored as a Committee bill. The following actions were taken.
Senator Boggs moved that the changes to reference "outdoor recreation areas and facilities" be inserted throughout the bill. The motion passed.
Representative Baker moved on page 3-line 11 through page 3-line 14 to reinsert the sentence. The motion was amended to include the preceding sentence also. The motion as amended passed.
Representative Baker moved to insert on page 3-line 8 an additional sentence "There shall be no entrance fees at Bear River or Hot Springs state parks." That motion passed.
Representative McMurtrey moved on page 4-line 10 to insert "and approved by the state parks and cultural resources commission" after "Act". The motion passed.
Senator Boggs moved page 4-lines 16-18 to read "Fees shall be reviewed at least annually by the department, the commission and the joint travel, recreation, wildlife and cultural resources interim committee. " The motion passed.
Senator Burns moved Page 4-line line 19. Passed.
Senator Boggs moved Page 4-line 22 Delete "to the extent practicable". Passed.
Senator Boggs moved Page 4-line 23 Delete "reflect" insert "consider". Passed.
Senator Boggs moved Page 5-line 1 Delete "Readily available";
Page 5-line 3 Delete "surrounding" insert "contiguous".
Page 5-lines 5 and 6 Delete through "comparable" insert "The cost of";
Page 5-line 13 Delete the line through "reflect";
Page 5-line 14 Delete "associated with the system".
The motion passed.
Senator Boggs moved Page 5-line 20 Delete "consulting" insert "informing".
Senator Boggs moved Page 6-line 14 Strike all of the current paragraph (xvii) and insert "Fees may be waived by the department with the approval of the commission." The motion passed.
Representative Baker moved to amend page 9-lines 7 and 8 to read "shall retain up to ten percent (10%) as established by rule of the department adopted pursuant to this section of the selling price of each permit". The motion passed.
Senator Burns moved to make the language of subsection (h) on page 9-lines 15 through 21 applicable to the Wyoming Territorial prison as explained by LSO staff. The motion passed.
Page 12-line 17Senator Boggs moved to insert "or approved" after "sponsored". The motion passed.
The main motion passed. 14-0
Representative McMurtrey moved 05 LSO 179.W2 (appendix 5) be sponsored as a Committee bill. The motion was seconded and passed 13-1 without amendment, with cochairman Baker voting "no".
Senator Roberts announced that the remainder of the morning agenda would be moved to the next meeting.
Snowmobile trails.
Greg Hill Wyoming Snowmobile Association addressed the Committee. The Association believes the current trails program is under funded and is requesting additional funding. (Appendix 6) That position was supported by persons who contract for the grooming of those trails. The position was also supported by Pat Green of the Department of State Parks and Cultural Resources.
Senator Roberts asked that the proponents of the additional funding provide the Committee with details of how additional funding would be used and how much would be generated by different proposals.
Representative Baker moved that a bill be prepared increasing the user fee by $10 for residents and nonresidents and $25 for commercial fees. The motion was seconded and passed. Senator Boggs moved that the Committee should have a bill drafted providing for funding of a study to determine the amount of gasoline used by snowmobilers in Wyoming in order to determine the appropriate amount of gasoline tax that should flow to the trails program. Senator Boggs moved that there be a placeholder for the amount of the study cost in the bill and asked the LSO to help determine the amount needed. The motion passed.
Game and Fish funding
Terry Cleveland, Director of the Game and Fish Department and Bill Wichers, Deputy Director, addressed the Committee on alternative funding for the Department. Mr. Cleveland's summarized testimony on the issue was provided in writing. (Appendix 7) The Department is suggesting funding from the general fund of $10 million annually in a block grant. That funding would go to those programs under the Department which should not be funded through hunting and fishing licenses. Mr. Wichers provided a review of the proposal in detail based upon materials provided the Committee. (Appendix 7).
Mr. Cleveland noted that the proposal was in response to the Committee's request to attempt to identify and bifurcate the Department's programs which could be supported by general fund dollars rather than hunting and fishing licenses. The proposal calls for 49 additional positions with general funding of 96 permanent full time game and fish positions.
Committee questions included the amount of public input thus far taken and whether the additional positions would require additional capital construction. To the latter issue, Mr. Cleveland noted that currently the state office in Cheyenne already requires addressing. Mr. Wichers noted that with the most recent changes current offices could take the new positions.
Bob Wharff, Wyoming Sportsmen, supported the Department's proposal since there are a number of programs funded by hunting and fishing license fees which are not limited to hunting and fishing activities.
Hale Krechik, Wyoming Game and Fish Commission Chairman, and Linda Fleming, Commissioner supported the proposal. They noted that there is concern that the Commission is getting close to not being able to fulfill its statutory duties. Bill Williams, Commissioner, supported the proposal. He noted that the department has lost personnel in cuts made a few years ago. Health insurance premiums for employees have increased. The game and fish budget has been trimmed in the past few years.
Dru Bower, Petroleum Association of Wyoming, testified that there are game and fish programs that should not be supported solely by license fees. There are some concerns with the proposal and her association would look at the proposal in more detail before providing a position.
Jim Magagna, Wyoming Stockgrowers Association, supported the general idea of finding some separate funding for the game and fish department. He was concerned with the block grant proposal.
Ben Lamb, Wyoming outdoor council, noted that there have been rollbacks in the enforcement of game and fish license check stations. He supported the proposal.
Alternative wildlife funding
Governor Freudenthal addressed the issue of continued funding for the game and fish department and the issue of permanent funding for natural resources. On the game and fish proposal, he believed that the issues of sage grouse, chronic wasting disease and brucellosis need to be addressed this year. He explained how his proposed budget will address those items. All of those items affect the state generally and should not be limited to funding from hunting and fishing license fees. There will also be a degree of independence in his funding requests, though not to the full block grant type funding. He believed the other funding requests were fair for Committee and legislative debate, but they do not rise to the level of need for a supplemental budget request in his view.
The Governor addressed his proposal for a permanent source of wildlife funding. He provided the Committee written proposals for funding. (Appendix 8) He stated that the issue has taken on increased importance to him as he attends events in which the theme of Wyoming's natural resources are intertwined with living in Wyoming. The idea is not new with the Governor, but has been drawn from legislative proposals from the mid 1980's. Two provisions the Governor emphasized were that the funding is not a supplanting of current budgets and that it cannot be used for the exercise of eminent domain. The proposal calls for a board of 2 game and fish commissioners, 2 from the department of agriculture, and 3 from the public at large. There should be no prohibition on the acquisition of easements or real property. There could be wildlife easements acquired by the board. The proposal presented by the Governor draws from earlier failed legislation, which in his view failed due to a lack of money. With the State at a revenue plateau now is the time in his view to take a forward looking position to maintain Wyoming's wildlife and natural resources.
The amount to invest is not as important in his view as is the need to begin the commitment. Enough should be in place to make the commitment real. In response to Committee questions the Governor suggested that the funding could be between $50 and $75 million to start, with a portion to be placed in the spending account. He noted there could be a restructuring of the coal lease bonus funds to free up additional funds. The funds would be separate and apart from and not used for operating expenses of any of the governmental entities authorized to receive grants under the proposal.
Representative Edwards moved that a bill be drafted implementing the Game and Fish Department proposals. Representative Baker suggested that the proposal should not be a block grant, but that there should be a bill draft listing the ten programs suggested by the Department. Representative Edwards agreed that his motion could specifically identify the various programs proposed in the bill. LSO staff questioned which of the alternatives suggested in the proposal should be included. Mr. Wichers suggested that the Department work with the LSO to draft a bill specifying the programs and provide a general fund appropriation of $10 million. The motion passed.
The Committee addressed the Governor's proposal. Representative Baker explained that he asked that 05 LSO 216.W2 be drafted for the Committee to consider. LSO staff reiterated that the draft had actually been crafted based largely on Mr. Magagna's proposal presented at the June meeting. The W2 incorrectly attributed proposals to the Governor rather than Mr. Magagna. 05 LSO 216.W3 (appendix 9) had been prepared to remove those incorrect references. Cathy Purves, Wyoming Outdoor Council, addressed an alternative to both the Governor's proposal and 216.W3. She provided three items (appendix 10) and explained the proposal being presented.
Senator Boggs moved that LSO staff draft all three proposals in one bill placing alternatives from the three within the bill. LSO staff explained that such a bill draft could be done, but that the draft would include only the alternatives that were of substance. Those items that were nearly identical or which were determined by the LSO not to be of great import in implementing the proposal would not all be shown as alternatives, rather the LSO would use the proposal most consistent with the statutory language generally used. Senator Boggs' motion passed.
Director Cleveland and Ron Arnold, Game and Fish Department, addressed the issue of electronic licensing. Mr. Arnold summarized the proposed legislation (05 LSO 194.W2). (Appendix 11) The bill would authorize the Game and Fish Commission to issue licenses electronically and to charge an additional fee for issuing licenses electronically. Only fishing, bird and small game licenses are contemplated to be included initially in the electronic system. Committee members questioned the inclusion of the ability to charge an additional fee for electronic payments. In response to Committee questions, Mr. Arnold stated the bill should not have a significant negative effect on the number of license selling agents. The cost of the program is approximately $1.4 million and has been appropriated from the game and fish fund.
Representative Slater moved the bill be sponsored as a Committee bill, Representative Edwards seconded the motion. Senator Hanes moved to delete lines 10 through 13 on page 3 and to rewrite page 3-lines 8 and 9 to state that the commission shall not assess a fee for electronic payments. The motion failed.
The main motion passed 14-0.
The Committee briefly addressed recreational opportunities for increasing game populations. No action was taken.
The Committee recessed for the day.
Bingo
Attorney General Pat Crank and Senior Assistant Attorney General Terry Armitage addressed the Committee regarding the issue of bingo. General Crank noted that there were three issues relating to bingo. The first is what is bingo, whether electronic games are within the legislative intent. The second is what a nonprofit organization is . The third is if the operations are allowed the Legislature should consider whether the State should institute a gaming commission or some oversight authority.
Mr. Armitage stated that Wyoming generally prohibits gambling, but has an exception for bingo conducted by a charitable or nonprofit organization. He noted ongoing litigation in which the plaintiffs are seeking a declaratory judgment declaring what is and is not allowed and who may conduct the allowable games. He explained the different types of electronic machines being used to play what is being argued as bingo. He also testified that there needs to be a definition of "bingo", a definition of "conducted by" and a definition of "nonprofit organizations". He estimated a timeline of over a year or so for a Wyoming Supreme Court opinion in the referenced case.
The Committee questioned how a Casper entity is allowed to conduct bingo over the television. Mr. Crank responded that the issue is a little different in that the public can see the drawing of the numbers, unlike the electronic games.
The Attorney General's recommendation were that some percentage of the proceeds be designated to a charitable organization. There would then need to be some form of gaming commission to enforce that requirement. The pari-mutuel commission would not wish to be the overseeing entity in his view nor do they necessarily have the expertise to oversee that activity.
The Attorney General also explained that the pari-mutuel commission authorized instant racing in the State. The Attorney General has opined that the activity is pari-mutuel betting but the machines are gambling devices under the gambling statutes. The argument is whether the game is a form of simulcast racing or not. The issue regarding the instant racing machines is whether the machine is a game of skill or merely chance; the first being pari-mutuel racing, the second being gambling. There is a declaratory judgment action regarding this issue also.
The Attorney General stated that there is also a federal court case involving the federal Indian Gaming Regulatory Act. In that case the district court found that the Governor failed to negotiate with the tribes in good faith. The second issue is how much gambling is allowed in Wyoming; whether the casino nights being conducted "open the doors" to all gambling activities.
Senator Boggs asked whether the reference to nonprofit organizations should be to 501(c) or be limited to 501(c)(iii). He also asked for the Attorney Generals recommendation as to whether W.S. 6-7-104 should be repealed as recommended by Platte County Attorney Eric Alden. The Attorney General recommended that issue should be clarified.
As to authority over the tribes, the Attorney General stated that the Legislature has authority over the tribes in that the tribes are authorized to conduct gambling to the extent that the activity is authorized in the State. The State would not have regulatory authority over the reservation. That authority lies with the federal U.S. Attorney.
The Attorney General stated that bingo currently is being used in his view as a loophole to allow for profit entities to make money. If bingo is restricted further legislation may not be necessary, but if the Committee broadens the activity, there probably should be additional regulatory entity created.
Richard Emond and Mike Kerr of Planet Bingo, provided a background of bingo and electronic bingo. In Mr. Kerr's view bingo is not gambling because there is always a winner in bingo. Most bingo players are playing for socialization, not to win money. He provided information regarding the prevalence of bingo playing in North America, (46 states allow bingo and 32 allow electronic bingo). He provided information that showed the change from paper bingo to electronic bingo in the nation. He also suggested that there should be a regulatory authority.
Steve Cranfill, representing Dreamgames of Arizona, introduced Paul Perez of Dreamgames of Arizona. He demonstrated the electronic game subject to the action in Laramie county district court. The game is capable of printing out a hard copy of the bingo card. In his view that keeps the game in line with the statute and legislative intent when the statute was enacted. The entity running the game can still generate the 24 numbers by the traditional method of a blower and bingo balls. Mr. Perez demonstrated the electronic game for the Committee. The manufacturer programs the machine so that the organization running the event will eventually make a profit, although there is no guarantee that for any particular day or session the organization will profit. After the numbers are generated people purchase the cards to play and see if the numbers fill the required pattern on the card purchased. In the game demonstrated it would take about 45 minutes for about 100 plays; the amount per play can vary.
Mr. Perez suggested that there could be changes to the statutes to clarify the intent. One suggestion was that there needs to be at least one winner per game. The ability to print out a physical card is another aspect that could help with verification. He also urged that the activity should be regulated.
Gay Woodhouse, representing the Cheyenne and Sheridan Eagles Club, addressed the Committee. The fast action bingo demonstrated was brought within the State by the Eagles Clubs in order to increase the revenues to the Club. She advocated that there should be a definition of bingo, which she thought the city of Cheyenne has done well. She also urged that there should be a definition of nonprofit organizations to ensure that only legitimate charitable organizations are included. Within the definition of bingo should be the requirement that numbers drawn are done randomly. She also suggested that the court cases will not address all issues raised by the current statutes. She also supported that the definition include the limitation of time for a session and the requirement that players are playing against each other.
Jim Mauch, secretary of the Sweetwater Eagles Club, urged that electronic bingo should be allowed. It has allowed the organization to generate funds for charitable purposes. He urged that the operation of bingo games be limited to legitimate nonprofit organizations. He reviewed the percentages of income the Eagles Club distributes to charities, for administrative expenses and other uses. Mr. Mauch's testimony was provided in writing. (Appendix 11). Alan Staley, Sweetwater Eagles Club, addressed the amount of funds received by the club; 45% of all revenue not returned to winners is given to Dreamgames.
Mr. Perez testified that his organization charges a flat rate to the nonprofit organization or a percentage based upon the net profit of the games played. He recommended that a statute place a cap on the amount the supplier of the machines may receive. On the average about 70 to 75% is paid to winners. From the remainder up to 50% is paid to the supplier of the machines in Mr. Perez' case.
Senator Hanes requested a memorandum from Ms. Woodhouse and Mr. Cranfill regarding the tracking of how each dollar is distributed which is played on electronic bingo. The Committee also requested the amount of spending per member of the club. Also requested was the amount distributed to the various charities by the nonprofit organization.
Roxana Taylor, general manager of Hilltop Bingo, addressed the Committee. She is operating bingo which is sponsored by the Lions Club. She provided written material in support of her testimony. (Appendix 12) She stated that paper bingo cannot be operated by volunteers given the volume of work required. Electronic bingo can be run more efficiently, to the point that $54,000 was received by the Lions Club last year through the bingo operations run by her organization. Prior to using the electronic bingo machines her organization was operating a money losing proposition.
Senator Hanes asked for the same breakdown of each dollar spent on bingo from Ms. Taylor. She responded that about 75% is repaid in winnings; the Lions Club receives 25% of the remaining funds. The Lions Club of Casper owns the organization Ms. Taylor operates. She operates on a contract basis for the Club and is paid a fixed amount to operate bingo. The supplier and distributor of the machines receives 50% of the nonwinning funds. Representative Slater again asked for a breakdown of where each dollar flows which is spent on electronic bingo. Mr. Perez offered to do so and to provide a list of nonprofit entities in which his game is played.
Mike Kerr, Planet Bingo, addressed the issue of payouts. He stated that it ranges from 70% to 92%. He urged that bingo should not be restricted to members of the nonprofit organization.
Mike Moser, Wyoming Retail Merchants Association, addressed the Committee. He stated that the issue has always had some vagueness, but the intensity has raised in the past few years. His organization has no position on the issue now, but he did think the issue is one that needs to be clarified. He stated that nonprofit organizations have an advantage in being able to subsidize their activities with bingo proceeds, while the for profit retail industry cannot.
Dave Larson, with an organization entitled, "It's About Time", addressed the Committee. He provided written materials in his testimony. (Appendix 13). The basic idea of his proposal would be to allow ebingo to support cultural programs based upon a cooperative organization. He wanted the Committee to be aware of his organization's efforts. He suggested that there could be a combination of an entertainment center (which could contain a bingo operation) with a cultural resource such as a museum. His organization is not yet at the point of asking for any type of monetary commitment from the museums which have been contacted.
Cochairman Baker provided a proposed definition for a nonprofit organization. The Attorney General suggested that he be allowed to review the language. Representative Baker also questioned whether there should be a set percentage that must go to the charitable organizations. The Attorney General recommended that be done. Likewise there would be a required reporting of those percentages.
Ms. Woodhouse was asked to draft a definition of nonprofit organization and bingo. Cochairman Baker suggested that the Committee define "bingo", "nonprofit organization" and "conducted by". He also suggested that there be a reporting and auditing function. He further suggested that there be a requirement for the amount to charity. He urged that the starting point be the Colorado definition of bingo. A working group of Cochairman Baker, Representatives Iekel, Edwards and Harshman and Senator Boggs was appointed as a working group to draft legislation.
The Attorney General also provided an update of the wolf litigation. The federal government has filed its administrative record and the Attorney General is reviewing that record. The timeline for the district court action was outlined. It is expected to have a decision as early as March or April of this year.
The meeting was adjourned at 2:35 p.m.
Respectfully submitted,
Senator Delaine Roberts, Co-Chairman