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December 15 & 16, 2005
University of Wyoming, Alumni House
Laramie, Wyoming
Senator Bruce Burns, Co-Chairman
Representative Pat Childers, Co-Chairman
Senator Stan Cooper
Senator Mike Massie
Senator Tony Ross
Senator Michael Von Flatern
Representative Kermit Brown
Representative Kathy Davison
Representative Wayne Reese
Representative Jim Slater
Representative Bill Thompson
Representative Dan Zwonitzer
Representative Keith Gingery
Representative Jerry Iekel
Lynda Cook, Staff Attorney
Please refer to
Appendix 1 to review the Committee Sign-in Sheet
for a list of other individuals who attended the meeting.
Co-Chairman Bruce Burns called the meeting to order at 8:00am. The following sections summarize the Committee proceedings by topic. Please refer to Appendix 2 to review the Committee Meeting Agenda.
Minutes from the October, 2005 Committee meeting were approved.
Diane Shober, Director of the Department of Travel and Tourism, gave a powerpoint presentation showing the types of media that the department is using to attract tourism to the state. (Appendix 3).
The committee discussed potential film incentive programs and how they compare with other states.
There was discussion on the historical mine trail program. Chairman Childers was interested in expanding the program to encourage tourism.
Ms. Shober discussed their budget request for this year how they intend to use the money to use the internet and other cutting edge media to meet the market.
Representative Thompson asked whether there were any plans to develop tourism along the I-80 corridor. Shober said they use the landmarks like Yellowstone and the Grand Tetons as a hook and they will try to shape things on other areas in the markets that make sense. Rep. Thompson requested that the department include the smaller destinations as an addition to the larger marketing scheme but not decrease the promotion of the larger places.
Paul Hoffman, Deputy Assistant Secretary for Fish, Wildlife and Parks testified regarding the problems with the state's wolf management plan. The testimony was recorded by a court reporter. (Appendix 4) Mitch King, Acting Regional Director from the Denver office joined Mr. Hoffman. Mr. Hoffman recapped the history of advancing the process of de-listing wolves. The states and federal government are on the same team and they need to work together like a team. A Oregon court overturned the rule creating distinct population segments last January. A court in Vermont agreed in August. The courts took issue with boundaries in the areas because there were non-introduced wolves that were included. The courts overturned the entire rule even though the problem was based on the boundaries only. In the meantime, a federal judge denied the Wyoming case. Even if Wyoming ultimately wins that case, Hoffman contended that the state still needs to have an adequate management plan. Wyoming has filed a petition to de-list. The FWS responded to the 90-day petition on the 90th day. The 90-day finding was affirmative. FWS believes the Rocky mountain wolf population is recovered. One anxiety is that approximately half of the packs are in Yellowstone where Wyoming has no management authority. They are trying to work on this with MOUs. They are also working to collar wolves with GPS collars to get real time tracking information. Yellowstone will also rewrite their wolf management plan. They will work cooperatively with Wyoming but the ultimate decisions will be federal on federal lands.
Mr. Hoffman discussed how the FWS describes distinct population segment boundaries. They don't use political boundaries like state lines. However, Montana and Idaho have asked for a DPS excluding Wyoming if Wyoming's plan has not been deemed adequate.
The Department of Interior will propose two new rules in 2006. The first will create a DPS encompassing the three states and recommending delisting. However, Wyoming's management plan will need to be deemed adequate in order to move forward.
Mr. Hoffman stated that we cant turn the clocks back and take back the reintroduction, so we need to move forward. An adequate program was found for grizzly bears and that includes a licensed hunt. Wyoming needs that for wolves. They are not asking for particular seasons or even bag limits. They believe that is the prerogative of the state. Idaho and Montana have licensed hunts mechanisms without any description of the bag limits and they have approved them.
They want the plan to manage for 15 packs including the packs in the park. The current plan manages for a certain number in the park and a certain number outside. However, managing for a total number would provide flexibility to have more in the park. The reason for 15 packs is to have a buffer and latitude to ensure that the states do not get below the recovery goals. If at the end of 5 years the packs remain at or above the recovery goals, the FWS would no longer be involved unless a petition is filed to relist. If the legislature decides to define the size of a pack, a biologically sustainable number would be 5 animals traveling together.
Chairman Childers pointed out that other states don't have the issue of a huge portion of their area that they don't manage. The problem is that the park service does not manage wolves, they only monitor them. He at least wants to hear from the park that they will be doing a better job of monitoring using GPS collars. Hoffman said they are currently working with the Wyo. Game and Fish department to place GPS collars on wolves. The park service does not manage any of their game species. Mr. Hoffman also noted that Montana, Minnesota and Michigan all have wolves inside national parks so Wyoming is not so unique.
Senator Massie asked for clarification that the problem is that wolves are classified as predators outside the recovery area. Hoffman said the nomenclature is not important to them, just that a licensed regulated program control hunting of wolves. They believe they need this so the delisting will withstand litigation.
Representative Brown asked about wolves in Goshen county if we have wolves there how would they be controlled. The FWS would remove them now. If they are delisted under a permitted program, state law allows the landowner to kill animals without a permit if they are damaging livestock. Additionally, the game and fish department can develop a licensed hunt program that would control those animals. Hoffman also pointed out that under the 10j rule, ranchers have to see the animal predating on livestock. But, if the animals are delisted then it would be the state's law that applies and the state law can say that a rancher who sees a wolf can reasonably conclude that a wolf in Goshen county would preying on their livestock and could kill it.
Senator Cooper discussed Mike Jimenez's testimony at the last meeting that wolves are recovered. He asked why the FWS is not willing to meet the state halfway by allowing the state to use the current plan and just see that the numbers are there to meet the goal. Mr. Hoffman said that the goal is to get the delisting done in a way that will withstand legal challenge. They believe that the current plan will not withstand a challenge that the plan is not an adequate regulatory mechanism.
Chairman Childers asked if we had a management plan that includes a $1 tag and unlimited take in Goshen county for instance, and a predator control board management, would that be acceptable. The current plan isn't really any different because all kills would be reportable. Mr. Hoffman answered that the FWS is not interested in dictating how the state manages as long as there is an adequate regulatory mechanism that will ensure a viable population into the future.
The plan just needs to ensure that a regulatory agency has the authority to take necessary actions to ensure that the population goal is being met. Mr. Hoffman said the current plan only allows the regulatory agency to react by moving the boundaries of the management area. A system where they have authority throughout the state is a proactive management plan.
Currently the FWS budget estimates that they spend approximately $150,000 per year managing wolves in Wyoming (above personnel costs). Mr. Hoffman said there is no mechanism in the ESA to reimburse states for the cost of management, even though the federal government put them here in the first place. However, there are many grant programs that could be used to help.
Terry Cleveland, Game & Fish director testified regarding the history of the state's management plan. Wolves are trophy game in the management area. But the commission can move those boundaries in order to maintain the recovery goal. This flexible system should be adequate to meet and maintain the recovery goals. There is no argument that wolves that leave the area are going to come in conflict. Currently FWS lethally removes them. Under our plan, the citizens of Wyoming would lethally remove them. The outcome is the same. When asked by Chairman Burns about the cost of managing grizzly bears, Mr. Cleveland responded that the department spends approximately $800,000 per year managing bears.
The problem with changing them from predator to trophy game throughout the state is that the commission would be required to pay damages. A system that would allow for a dual fees system would take legislative change. He finds it weak to argue that we don't have adequate regulatory mechanisms because we don't license the take because we clearly have the ability to manage to meet the recovery goals.
Fiscal responsibility is important, but the ability of the department to work with the agricultural community needs to be considered to.
Representative Zwonitzer asked where do we go from here. Mr. Hoffman said it's not his call to make. It can go through the judicial process, or the legislature can make the changes suggested by Mr. Hoffman.
Frank Lamb, Director, presented two bills requested by the pari-mutuel commission.
06 LSO 0122.C1 Pari-mutuel commission authority (Appendix 5). Senator Von Flatern moved the billed, seconded by Chairman Childers.
The bill provides for background checks and allows for simulcasting of races from places with a higher take out. DCI has reviewed and approved the language.
The bill passed unanimously.
06 LSO 0123.C1 Simulcasting of pari-mutuel events (Appendix 6). Representative Zwonitzer moved the bill, seconded by Senator Von Flatern.
The bill is similar to the bill that was vetoed by the governor last session. The bill now limits the number of terminals in any place, and limits that to one place per county.
Senator Massie spoke against the bill because nothing has changed since the veto. This is a budget session where bills should only be introduced that have important significance. Rep. Reese stated that he does not support the concept of opening up gaming in only one location in the state. If the legislature is going to allow gaming, then it needs to be equitable.
The bill failed 5 to 7 (Opposed Cooper, Massie, Brown, Davison, Reese, Slater & Thompson).
Representative Brown stated that he supports the lottery. However, this bill calls for spending money to take an opinion poll that has the danger of not being a true indication of the opinion of the people. This is something the legislature should just do, not get an opinion poll on it. He also sees this as a cop out they were elected to make these decisions. It also will set a precedent that will start a plethora of non-binding referenda.
Senator Ross agreed. This is a way to get a feel for the constituents and the legislators should get that when they go door to door. It's an abdication of the legislature's duty.
Chairman Childers thinks that most people in the state would agree with having powerball, but it keeps getting brought up that a broader referendum failed several years ago. He thinks that if they are asked only about powerball they would support it.
Rep. Brown pointed out that if the voters are capable of making a decision on a non-binding referendum, then they are also capable of voting out the legislators that did not support the powerball bill last session.
Representative Reese moved the bill, Chairman Childers seconded. (Appendix 7).
There was discussion about the ability of the legislature to bring a referendum.
Chairman Burns stated that he was in favor of allowing gambling, including multi-state lottery. He voted against the referendum years ago because of the limitations in it. He doesn't think this will get the 2/3 vote and that will hurt the chances of bringing a real lottery bill. He is going to vote against this bill in order to save the concept.
The bill failed 4 to 8 (Opposed: Burns, Cooper, Ross, Von Flatern, Brown, Slater, Thompson and Zwonitzer).
LSO staff walked the committee through the bill.
Members of the subcommittee explained the process. They put everything in the draft bill providing as many options as possible into the bill for the full committee to consider.
The committee took testimony from the public. Joe Shumway, Laramie City Council testified in opposition to any bill that expands gambling in the state. He sees the creation of a gaming commission as a gearing up for expansion of gambling. He described the costs to the community of gambling, including crime, bankruptcy and divorce.
Steve Cranfill & Paul Perez, Dreamgames, testified regarding the history of the legislation. He clarified that he clearly understood that e-bingo is not authorized. He provided language to accommodate electronic minders for bingo that does not reflect the slot machine like machines that the committee clearly didn't want. They see this bill as a restriction on gaming, not an expansion. Mr. Perez explained how the electronic minders work and how the language allows for them but does not allow for e-bingo. Senator Massie pointed out that the allowance of these electronic minders would really be an expansion of gambling to some degree because they are not allowed under the district court decision.
Jim Mauk, Eagles, testified regarding the affect of losing electronic bingo. He believes they can control the social aspects of e-bingo because they limit the amount of money that they will cash a check for. They also control the social ramifications by not being open to the general public.
Dave Askew, Association of Non-profit Organizations, testified regarding the effect of losing e-bingo for his members. He testified that they have reviewed the bill and they like it. They believe it will allow their members to survive.
Mike Moser, Wyo. State Liquor Association testified in support of the bill. He stated that the bill takes things that have been unregulated and regulates them. The problem is that if a group of seniors plays poker in a diner they are committing a felony.
Jerry Burback, American Legion, Casper testified in support of the bill. They need e-bingo in order to keep their doors open. They do many charitable functions that will lose out if they close their doors. Traditional bingo is too expensive to run.
Frank Lamb, Pari-mutuel Commission testified that the pari-mutuel commission doesn't mind reporting to a gaming commission but they don't see why its necessary.
Gilbert Valdez, Eagles in Cheyenne, testified that the loss of e-bingo has seriously decreased their ability to donate to other charities. They are back now to the same level of charitable giving but it is hard. Chairman Burns pointed out that the associations that have testified that they are going to have to close their doors survived for years and years without electronic bingo.
Chairman Childers moved the bill, Senator Van Flatern seconded.
The committee started working the bill 06 LSO 0217.W2 (Appendix 8). After amendments were done, the bill appeared as provided in Appendix 9. The committee voted unanimously to sponsor the bill.
The Committee recessed at 5:30pm and reconvened at 8:00 am December 16, 2005.
Phil Noble introduced the new trails coordinator Tim Puskarich.
Joe Ellis, Superintendent of South Pass gave a presentation on the progress at the Carissa Mine. Since the meeting in Lander in May, the mine renovation has progressed quickly. (Appendix 10). He commended AML on their assistance in this project. They are getting all the buildings on the National Historic Register. AML has even funded their strategic planning to ensure that the park grows in a sustainable manner. Senator Massie asked the department to get a list of needs and costs to the committee.
Pat Green presented the State Parks Department's priorities for critical maintenance needs. (Appendix 11). The seven million dollars received in the last biennium have contributed to great improvements. They described $22 million dollars of deferred critical maintenance over the next five years. The department asked that the committee sponsor a bill for the appropriation. The chairmen explained that they were not approached to draft a bill for this final meeting. They suggested bringing the request to the appropriations committee. If the committee brought a separate bill it would have to go through the introduction process. The committee could send a letter to the JAC and governor supporting a bill.
Todd Thibodeau presented an economic impact study of increased tourism due to state parks.
Representative Slater made a motion to draft a bill with the appropriation requested by the department. Motion failed.
Todd Thibodeau gave a presentation on the Bear River land trade and Curt Gowdy state park expansion. The department is proposing to change the boundary at Curt Gowdy state park. There have been an additional 920 acres of land that have been acquired and incorporated. W.S. 36-8-601 has an outdated legal description given the acquired lands. The Cheyenne Board of Public Utilities has also asked the department to manage north crow creek reservoir as part of the state park. (Appendix 12). As it turns out, most of the buildings and staff facilities are not legally within the park. The whole park is currently leased. Joe Bonds testified that the city of Cheyenne and board of public utilities is in agreement with this process and they are currently in the process of negotiating another 25 year extension of the lease.
Reese moved that the committee have legislation drafted describing the boundaries as they are currently managed, including the north crow creek reservoir area. The motion passed unanimously. The bill will be sent out to the committee with a post card ballot.
Bear River State Park is outside Evanston. (Appendix 13). The park butts up against a 23 acre parcel of private land. The landowner would like to exchange equal value land because visitors often trespass on her land. The Office of State Lands would have to initiate the land exchange. The OSL would like a letter or resolution of support for this exchange.
Chairman Burns moved that the committee write such a letter. Rep. Davison seconded. The motion passed. The department will draft the letter and provide it to LSO staff for signature.
Linda Reynolds presented the consultants study on collections center needs. The report found that the department needs an 18 million dollar facility. (Appendix 14). The most critical need is the museum storage facility. The state building commission did not approve the request so the governor zeroed the request out of their budget. They did not approve the request because there were concerns over the location of the land to be acquired. Senator Burns stated that he was heartsick that there was a delay. Representative Reese stated that he would like to see money set aside for when the building commission finally makes a decision on the land. Linda Reynolds agreed that a letter of support to the building commission and the governor would help support the cause.
Milward Simpson was introduced as the replacement for Art Reese as director of cultural resources.
Director Noble reported that the department is currently working on developing a history web portal. (Appendix 15).
Linda Reynolds reported on the work of the Cultural Trust Fund Board. The board was created in 1988 but was not funded until the last session. The board had their first meeting last month to develop a mission statement and consider rules. By sometime in the spring they will have the applications for grants ready.
There being no further business, Co-Chairman Childers adjourned the meeting at 10:45 am to tour the Territorial Prison.
Respectfully submitted,
Bruce Burns, Co-Chairman