File name: JACBudgetHearings2014_20131218_122535.dcr Folder: C:\Documents and Settings\happropriations\My Documents\JAC Audio 2014 0 ~ 12/18/2013 12:55:46 PM ~ Start Recording 1 ~ 12/18/2013 12:55:48 PM ~ Wednesday, December 18, 2013 Review of JAC Legislative drafts.. Fireman plan A 28 ~ 12/18/2013 12:56:14 PM ~ Bebout: introduction... options will be discussed. Dave Gruver wil explain the bill.. Open Public coments Sick to the facts, first step of many steps.. today begins process.. budget session requires 2/3 vote to be introduced.. wil go to committee where you can present your testimony, then go to the other body and do it again. Very thorough process for you the public to express your concern. 2:58 ~ 12/18/2013 12:58:44 PM ~ Co-Chair Harshman: Fruedenthal - do not have to touch for 20 years, now looking at it going broke. Find a solution everyoen can live with. 3:55 ~ 12/18/2013 12:59:41 PM ~ Bebout: ..o 4:03 ~ 12/18/2013 12:59:49 PM ~ Moniz: recuse myself as a plan A member. 4:13 ~ 12/18/2013 12:59:59 PM ~ Bebout: stay and participate but not vote. 4:27 ~ 12/18/2013 1:00:14 PM ~ Bebout: 7 options.. make copies for 5:22 ~ 12/18/2013 1:01:09 PM ~ Ryeson: Split cost 3 ways..2.1% simple cola not compounded, reduces unfudned down to 43 M from original projections of 68 M . Brings unfunded down 25 M, more than 1/3 6:49 ~ 12/18/2013 1:02:35 PM ~ Bebout:... 6:58 ~ 12/18/2013 1:02:44 PM ~ Ryeson: Big plan amoritze over 30years. with fire A plan, shorten time period, closed, want fully funded in 10 years. Nov 14 memo, looked at existing plan = 68 M unfunded liab for both base and cola. currently 67% funded. State 50 city 50 is about 5 M a year, shown on appendiz A. Plan as is now with 3% COLA compounded. 8:53 ~ 12/18/2013 1:04:39 PM ~ bebout: ? 9:00 ~ 12/18/2013 1:04:46 PM ~ Ryeson: comparison of shares paid out.. Study 2 = 1/3 each for payments - city, state, participants, reduce to 2.1% compound leaves 49 Million to be split between employer and state.. 9:54 ~ 12/18/2013 1:05:40 PM ~ Bebout: where 42 M 10:00 ~ 12/18/2013 1:05:47 PM ~ Ryeson: Column 13.. 10:17 ~ 12/18/2013 1:06:04 PM ~ Sommers: if you put 49 M on day 1, that is all you would have to spend. If you amoritze over 10 year period, itwould be sign more. 10:50 ~ 12/18/2013 1:06:37 PM ~ hastert; Employer? 10:57 ~ 12/18/2013 1:06:44 PM ~ Hastert: every city 11:08 ~ 12/18/2013 1:06:54 PM ~ Ryeson: cities listed at the bottom of the page are the employers. 11:24 ~ 12/18/2013 1:07:10 PM ~ Bebout: Appendix A, study 2. 11:41 ~ 12/18/2013 1:07:28 PM ~ 11:57 ~ 12/18/2013 1:07:44 PM ~ Nicholas: Under the 2% compound cola, if the cities are required to cover half the cost of the remaining balance would pay 3.6 M per yera? 12:25 ~ 12/18/2013 1:08:11 PM ~ Ryeson: head nod yes. Study 3: 2.1 % compound cola with pay as you go - employer amount increases every year.. ...We would not recommend this as a funding method. 13:49 ~ 12/18/2013 1:09:36 PM ~ bebout: cities = 1.135 M , 14:02 ~ 12/18/2013 1:09:49 PM ~ Ryeson: top line - unfunded goes down but that is just the base benefit. 14:25 ~ 12/18/2013 1:10:12 PM ~ Bebout: so state or employers could pay that and you have to deal with the COLA.. 14:40 ~ 12/18/2013 1:10:27 PM ~ Ryeson: Study 3 - effect of COLA amount and how it increases every year. EX = Casper: 91,000 per year in Cola 185,000 for yr 2, ..everytime there is an inc, employuer would pay out over 1 M by 2022. We do not recommend this method. 15:43 ~ 12/18/2013 1:11:30 PM ~ Meier: Retirement benefits state medicare, nursing facility, ..what retiree gets back in net benefits with assumption they are in nursing facility, retirement goes to nursing facility, 16:36 ~ 12/18/2013 1:12:23 PM ~ Bebout: medicare. 16:41 ~ 12/18/2013 1:12:27 PM ~ perkins: Medicare does not cover nursing home..only pays up to 100 days of personal care.. unless there is rehabilitation. Medical nectest, avaialbe resource test, income test, 3 tests for medicare. Income has to be contributed to nursing home care. 17:47 ~ 12/18/2013 1:13:33 PM ~ Bebout: medicaid portion. Medicare is a different issue. 18:04 ~ 12/18/2013 1:13:50 PM ~ Ryeson: email with info, explain please.. 18:12 ~ 12/18/2013 1:13:58 PM ~ Ryeson: Medicare coverage for firee A individual. New hires after 86 were mandated to pay into medicare. All the retirees retired before that date so do not have medicare.. 18:54 ~ 12/18/2013 1:14:40 PM ~ Bebout: social secutrity.. 19:02 ~ 12/18/2013 1:14:48 PM ~ Ryeson: do not have a social security benefit or medicare benefit. 19:15 ~ 12/18/2013 1:15:01 PM ~ Crank: Represent Fire A - medicare qualify, must have employee quarters, larege number do not have it, 19:41 ~ 12/18/2013 1:15:28 PM ~ Bebout: pre 1986, unless they got a job after that there is no medicare. 20:00 ~ 12/18/2013 1:15:47 PM ~ Esquibel: Option # - smaller fire districts ...payments, budgets, what effect that amount of money has on their budget. concern. 20:51 ~ 12/18/2013 1:16:37 PM ~ Bebout: can not answer specific. 21:00 ~ 12/18/2013 1:16:46 PM ~ Ryeson: Study 4 = 3% simple cola. ona apay as you go. Unfunded liab = 14 m for base benefits. number inc yearly for employers because of not prefunding. Casper 131,000 beg by 2022 have 1.3 M. We would not recommend the pay as you go. 22:05 ~ 12/18/2013 1:17:52 PM ~ Ryeson: Study 5 - reduces compound cola from 3 % to 1.5 % - unfunded to 37 M, drop by 30 M. split difference between employer and state, annual basis 2.797 M for employers..lump sum pf 7.9 M would fully fund it. 23:18 ~ 12/18/2013 1:19:04 PM ~ Bebout: 10 yr amortization? 23:26 ~ 12/18/2013 1:19:12 PM ~ Ryeson: yes/ Study 5 = 1.5 % simple Cola, unfunded to 35 M. cost split, amoritzed 10 years. first year = 2.6 M for employers to pick up. 24:04 ~ 12/18/2013 1:19:51 PM ~ Bebout: Study 7. 2.55 simple. 24:17 ~ 12/18/2013 1:20:03 PM ~ Bebout: on sharepoint and in handout from today.. 24:33 ~ 12/18/2013 1:20:19 PM ~ Ryeson: from 2.1 $ compount cola to 1.2 %. unfunded liab = 43 M, decrease of 26 M. First yaer 50/50 split = 2.3 M for employer. 25:22 ~ 12/18/2013 1:21:09 PM ~ Bebout: Study 2 and Study 7 - employer contribution of 3.6 M vs 3.2 M. Unfunded million liab 49 M and 43 M. 26:05 ~ 12/18/2013 1:21:51 PM ~ Ryeson: correct 26:09 ~ 12/18/2013 1:21:55 PM ~ Bebout: for retiree what is the difference, between compount and simple .. 26:46 ~ 12/18/2013 1:22:32 PM ~ Nelson: 14LSO-0071.W5 bill pg 1 - annual reports required. 100% acturarially funded in 10 years. Assessments proporional based upon payments into the plan. 29:12 ~ 12/18/2013 1:24:59 PM ~ Bebout: 7 years, if plan is solvent, ? other way? 29:28 ~ 12/18/2013 1:25:14 PM ~ Gruver: within 10 Years, will annually review the assessments, which may be changed yearly. adjust yearly. 30:03 ~ 12/18/2013 1:25:50 PM ~ Bebout: could be 7 or 12 years or 9 or 11? 30:13 ~ 12/18/2013 1:26:00 PM ~ Gruver: written for 10 yeras. if bad investment returns, would have to come back in and revisit the statute. 30:40 ~ 12/18/2013 1:26:26 PM ~ meier: Don't revist the statute then what would happen? 30:59 ~ 12/18/2013 1:26:45 PM ~ Gruver: ....state puts in 22 M at beginning, which is fixed... 31:25 ~ 12/18/2013 1:27:11 PM ~ Bebout: cities only ones impacted by the moving part? 31:34 ~ 12/18/2013 1:27:21 PM ~ Gruver: correct. 31:39 ~ 12/18/2013 1:27:25 PM ~ Gruver: page 3, line 2= If not paid, there is a deliniquent contribution, state treasurer withholds funds from ... 32:34 ~ 12/18/2013 1:28:20 PM ~ meier: Not all of these employers get severance taxes. 32:45 ~ 12/18/2013 1:28:31 PM ~ Gruver: correct. Fire improvement districts do not, so no provision for that. If deliniquency in payment, the board may sue. 33:49 ~ 12/18/2013 1:29:36 PM ~ Bebout: 33:53 ~ 12/18/2013 1:29:39 PM ~ Gruver: answer 33:59 ~ 12/18/2013 1:29:46 PM ~ Gruver: line 17, board authorized to discontinue assessments.... 34:29 ~ 12/18/2013 1:30:15 PM ~ Bebout: shifting.. .. 34:40 ~ 12/18/2013 1:30:27 PM ~ Gruver: lines 21 -23, provisoin that employer does not have right to seek assessement back, will be adjusted the following year. Report provision, 35:46 ~ 12/18/2013 1:31:33 PM ~ Meier: bill language, included in budget.. 36:12 ~ 12/18/2013 1:31:59 PM ~ Gruver: yes you can . Pg 5, only adjusted 3% min, not 5% max. To go above the 3% must have.....Alternative keeps itat 2.1% with 100% goal, the other is a strict 2.1%. page 5, line 5 - shall not be compounded. page 6 line 2 = alternative. page 6 line 4 thorugh page 7 = provison for state treasurer to withhold sev tax. ..going forward basis. 23 M appropriation from GF efficetive July 1, 2014 (auditor will reduce if necessary). If less than 23 M is not needed, it will revert. 38:37 ~ 12/18/2013 1:34:24 PM ~ Perkins: delinquency - employer who does not receive severance taxes, no hammer? 39:04 ~ 12/18/2013 1:34:50 PM ~ Bebout; litigate 39:08 ~ 12/18/2013 1:34:55 PM ~ Gruver: provision in current law with 10% interest fee. 39:21 ~ 12/18/2013 1:35:07 PM ~ Perkins: two entities that could sue are....? 39:34 ~ 12/18/2013 1:35:20 PM ~ Gruver: Retirement system could sue for the contributions. 39:47 ~ 12/18/2013 1:35:33 PM ~ Wallis: 23 M ? 40:07 ~ 12/18/2013 1:35:54 PM ~ Gruver; 2.1% compoubnd = 26 M from state upfront. noncompounded = reduction in what state has to pay. 40:43 ~ 12/18/2013 1:36:29 PM ~ Sommers: page 7 of handout has figure. Study 7. notes at bottom of chart - one lump sum estimate = 23 M , These numbers will change becasue we will be woerking off our year end valuation. unless we hit al estimated assumptions dead on. 42:00 ~ 12/18/2013 1:37:46 PM ~ Nicholas: if change, trend higher or lower? 42:08 ~ 12/18/2013 1:37:54 PM ~ Sommers: I think it will be lower, don't know by how much. 42:25 ~ 12/18/2013 1:38:11 PM ~ Esquibel: State lump sum comes out of GF. Would SIPA acct be one we could use? 42:53 ~ 12/18/2013 1:38:39 PM ~ Richards: Gov recommends spending that account down to zero, so would have to disallow one or more of his recs then it would be available. 43:26 ~ 12/18/2013 1:39:12 PM ~ Bebout; Obligation -detroit bankruptcy. Retirees subject to stockholder treatment. What do you think of the state's obligations? Obigations to state taxpayers..taking GF for 300 individuals, exposure from those people suing. 44:35 ~ 12/18/2013 1:40:21 PM ~ Gruver: 1. What you have to do. 2. What you can do? What can you do - constitution provison article 3, section 30. No bill shall be passed giving extra compensation after services are rendered ......AG opinion in 2007 by Former AG Crank - when you provided the extra comp for retiree halth benefits, could you do it in lieu of article. Plain language reading can not do it.. ohter courts say not so clear. AG opiniion says you have hsittorically made GF contributions for employee retiremnt benefits..at least 15 with no question of violation of the section. I say sam thing applies wiht fireman A plan, which started in 1935 as the fireman plan which had a 100 a month cap. Obviously those benefits have changed, sometimew with employer contributions. Language says acct shall be administered without liability on the part of the state without....Question of gift from state. ..payment to wido, AG said no. Court said the state has a moral obligation. Got rid of escalator clause. I do not know hwer ecourt would come out. grounds against based on constitution, grounds based on moral obligation. # way split - can see that court would say that is reasonable thing to do. 49:58 ~ 12/18/2013 1:45:44 PM ~ Bebout: Taxpayers suing? 50:10 ~ 12/18/2013 1:45:56 PM ~ bebout: Taxpayers or cities suing? legal perspective. 50:35 ~ 12/18/2013 1:46:22 PM ~ Gruver: have not seen taxpayer lawsuit in Wyoming supreme court like this. Cities and towns - it wasn't always the state obligation and the state has stepped in to help. . 51:19 ~ 12/18/2013 1:47:06 PM ~ Bebout: statute - not have th obligation statute, does it rever to the state or also to cities and towns. 51:41 ~ 12/18/2013 1:47:28 PM ~ Gruver: State. acctshall be administered.. AG office opinion, 2009 JAC. Can you do away with the inc in benefit. Opionion was that you can if it is reasonable and necessary to save the fund. This account is shared with Fireman B, which is shared ...comingle accounts possibly..AG opinon does not address that. 52:57 ~ 12/18/2013 1:48:44 PM ~ Bebout: Fund Bankrupt in 10 years - sue under moral or contractural obligation, what is more difficult odefend? 53:29 ~ 12/18/2013 1:49:15 PM ~ Gruver: No, I don't think so. Statutes state we have no obligation beyond what is in the funds...Moral obligation is not a hook to hand the state on -- 54:32 ~ 12/18/2013 1:50:19 PM ~ Public Comments then city comments, then anyone else, then committee will take up the bill. 55:20 ~ 12/18/2013 1:51:06 PM ~ Crank: paid rep of fire plan A members - Moves to reduce COLA in all 4 years, have maintained it. based on williams testimony, wh siad no ned to do anything for 10 years. Members understand that we need to do something to maintain fund. Bebout suggested 1/3 splits. Membership agreed. We can largley support the bill but for the removal of the compounding provision. Ryeson said".... All bleed equal amounts so 2.1% compoundedstudy which is study 2 can be supported and will work to achieve passage. Strenous objectstions to noncompounded Colas..simple cola must compound or person loses COLA to inflation. 58:50 ~ 12/18/2013 1:54:37 PM ~ Bebout: Other retiree plans have no COLA 59:03 ~ 12/18/2013 1:54:50 PM ~ Crank: why should you get a COLA and we should not? Because it is a dramatically differnt plan. No abiity to participate in medicare. shows importance of this plan. Do not retire at high 3 of salary, you retire at percentage of first class fireman, defintion of someone there for 5 years with no promotion. We are different in material respect from the other three plans. 1:01:15 ~ 12/18/2013 1:57:02 PM ~ nicholas: First time I have hard of medicare inelgible. What number is that of the 300 particpants who are medicare ineligible? 1:01:51 ~ 12/18/2013 1:57:38 PM ~ Crank: We will try to do that - in conjunction with retirement system.. 1:02:11 ~ 12/18/2013 1:57:58 PM ~ nicholas: Does state retirement have medicare eligibility within system.. 1:02:31 ~ 12/18/2013 1:58:17 PM ~ Bebout: What about insurance? 1:02:39 ~ 12/18/2013 1:58:25 PM ~ Crank: will get back to you. 1:02:49 ~ 12/18/2013 1:58:35 PM ~ Bebout: understood social security, did not understand the medicare.. 1:03:02 ~ 12/18/2013 1:58:48 PM ~ Crank: Retirement system may not have that info..have ability to inquire directly with all 300 people via letter to get that data. 1:03:28 ~ 12/18/2013 1:59:15 PM ~ Bebout: medicare, medicaid elegibility. ACA .. 1:04:03 ~ 12/18/2013 1:59:49 PM ~ Crank: plan closed in 1987, cut off for mandatory enrollemtn was 1986 so doubt any of our people are getting soc security. 1:04:26 ~ 12/18/2013 2:00:12 PM ~ Stubson: math on avg benefit for compounding versus simple - I cam up with a 1000 dollar difference in 10 years. 1:05:01 ~ 12/18/2013 2:00:47 PM ~ Crank; we have not..will do so. 1:05:26 ~ 12/18/2013 2:01:12 PM ~ Bebout: ... 1:05:29 ~ 12/18/2013 2:01:16 PM ~ Crank: wonderment about what happened in 1991 - checking date - wrote to you with timeline in...In 1997, over strenous objections of fireman A members, all contributions both employer, employee from fire insurance tax, Thereafter AG opinon in 1996, can we spend B money elsewhere. AG said no. Fireman A for members...series of increases after that. Benefits based on 50 % then jumped . Increases suggested and recommended by the retirement system. Leg made statutory changes. Firefighters opposed ceasing those contributions and inc benefits would creat problem. 1:08:50 ~ 12/18/2013 2:04:37 PM ~ Crank: asked for analysis from retirement board..wwhat would have happened ..avg benefit if ....page 9 analysis. 1997 = 3000 additional benefit, 2012 = 16000 additional benefit. Via incrases received an additional yearly enefit of 3 to 16,000 . Compared to other plans, is it analogous. it is not much different than what we would see in the big paln. 1:10:50 ~ 12/18/2013 2:06:37 PM ~ Bebout: provide that information 1:11:03 ~ 12/18/2013 2:06:49 PM ~ Crank: Big plan based on hihgh 3 year salary = 2.1875 % of high 3 years - Big plan employee rece 10,000 raise, yearly benefit would be 6500 increase. roughly the same as fireman A received ....... 1:12:30 ~ 12/18/2013 2:08:17 PM ~ Nicholoas: Dec 18 report, page 8, hypothetical contribution 97 through 2003. What avg fireman would have paid if they paid percenta salary through 2013. Avg fireman = 2.1 M. Employers pay in 5.7M. State would have paid 6.1 M plus 21 M for total of 27 M. Fair distribtuion of contribution would not be 1/3. It would be state responsible for 85% of the unfunded liabiliyt. Why should city be bounced upt to 1/3? 1:14:27 ~ 12/18/2013 2:10:13 PM ~ Crank: numbers deceiving- based on active firemaen. By 97, small number of active, large number of retirees..21 M not paid to A. It was paid to fire plan B. After 97, the insurance proceeds were ceased. 1:15:31 ~ 12/18/2013 2:11:17 PM ~ nicholas: 21 M is the 1% tax on fireman's ins but in 1997, that is what was beng paid plus 6 M direct contribution from the state. 1:16:06 ~ 12/18/2013 2:11:52 PM ~ Crank: I beg to differ---paid to volunteer fire plan.. 21 M not into the plan. 1:16:29 ~ 12/18/2013 2:12:15 PM ~ Nicholas: may we have Mr. Summers answer. 1:16:41 ~ 12/18/2013 2:12:27 PM ~ Sommers: 21 M is actual amount distributed to account. Assumption is if it had paid into fire plan A, it would have been. 1:17:08 ~ 12/18/2013 2:12:55 PM ~ Harshman: ceased in 1997, re directed to volunteer. number it would have been. 1:17:28 ~ 12/18/2013 2:13:15 PM ~ Sommers: If we kept same rations into plan over this time frame that is hypothetical. no growth, just straight cash. 1:18:00 ~ 12/18/2013 2:13:47 PM ~ Nichoals: if we had done that , would the plan be sound? 1:18:10 ~ 12/18/2013 2:13:56 PM ~ Bebout: retirement board get b ack to us. 1:18:25 ~ 12/18/2013 2:14:11 PM ~ Harshman: line of question on page 8, state's large share of that.. 1:18:52 ~ 12/18/2013 2:14:39 PM ~ Crank: page I8 - what di employers pay to fireman B plan?,,,..cities have contributed to this fund only 53% of time it has been in existance and at a low reate.. 1:20:33 ~ 12/18/2013 2:16:19 PM ~ Crank: Compounded versus non-compounded, 3.2M versus 3.6M. Legality, a promise is a promise. Willing to forego a portion of the COLA to make the pension fund sound. 2.1% COLA would be sufficient. 1:23:41 ~ 12/18/2013 2:19:28 PM ~ Dockstader: Why deserve COLA? 1:23:54 ~ 12/18/2013 2:19:40 PM ~ Crank: 2.3% to social security recipients. These people not paid social security and retiree doesn't start at high 3 average. Need COLA to maintain. 1:25:02 ~ 12/18/2013 2:20:48 PM ~ Nicholas: $68M unfunded liability. 1:25:44 ~ 12/18/2013 2:21:31 PM ~ Esquibel: 50 surviving spouses that receive benefits 1:27:32 ~ 12/18/2013 2:23:19 PM ~ Crank: represents living firefighters and surviving spouses. Spouse not eligible for medicare coverage. 1:28:17 ~ 12/18/2013 2:24:04 PM ~ Parks: Wyoming Association of Municipalities. Bill addresses benefit going forward; state injecting significant amount of money to make up for shortfall. 1982, Fire A closed to membership. Have relyed on state for management of fund well. Employers if cities and towns did not have to pay contributions of $5.6M due to closing membership. Looking for info for social security and medicare eligibility. Feel it excessive for cities and towns to provide portion that should have been paid. Bill mechanism has 10 year taget, maybe too aggressive as it took 17 years to create. 1:35:40 ~ 12/18/2013 2:31:27 PM ~ Wallis: Extended payment time out past 10 years, would change amortization? 1:36:07 ~ 12/18/2013 2:31:53 PM ~ Parks: Yes, it would affect amortization. A closed end plan is difficult. Cheyenne and Gillette present. 1:37:48 ~ 12/18/2013 2:33:34 PM ~ Parks: Manage pension plans at state level due to professionals available. 1:40:27 ~ 12/18/2013 2:36:13 PM ~ Hastert: Ability? 1:40:54 ~ 12/18/2013 2:36:41 PM ~ Parks: General fund expenditures for running fire departments 1:41:50 ~ 12/18/2013 2:37:37 PM ~ Huff: Would pay obligation from general fund, could cover with reserves. Limited ability to raise additonal revenue, but expenditures on the rise? Could be $900,000 to $1.1M annually. Extending payments, even with compouding, would be helpful. How many recipients receiving social security and medicare benefits? Also, dollar amount of benefit for those in the Big Plan, based on high 3 years, and Plan A recipients, who receive 50% of median firefighter salary. 1:47:20 ~ 12/18/2013 2:43:06 PM ~ Hastert: Impact on public safety accounts in Cheyenne? 1:47:39 ~ 12/18/2013 2:43:25 PM ~ Huff: $12M for fire operations, $10M police operations. Bound by collective bargaining for 2 agencies. 1:48:28 ~ 12/18/2013 2:44:14 PM ~ Harshman: $50M budget, does it include additional monies? 1:50:03 ~ 12/18/2013 2:45:49 PM ~ Huff: Additional $3.9M included in $50M budget for Cheyenne. Received $1.9M last year. 1:50:32 ~ 12/18/2013 2:46:18 PM ~ Mayor, City of Sheridan: Lost 1/3 revenues, layoffs in city government. 4 way split discussion. Fire Plan A underfunded; Fire Plan B overfunded. Plan B could contribute a bit more, including cities and towns. Collective bargaining, pay 100% of Fire Plan B after no longer paying Fire Plan A. 1:53:24 ~ 12/18/2013 2:49:10 PM ~ Esquibel: Compromise public safety for repayment by cities and towns? 1:54:11 ~ 12/18/2013 2:49:58 PM ~ Mayor of Sheridan: No, would pay obligation. Hoping to tap supplemental distribution. 1:56:21 ~ 12/18/2013 2:52:07 PM ~ HR Resources, City of Gillette: WY Retirement Board has had the responsibility to manage Fire A pension fund; no input or authority for pension fund. 1:59:39 ~ 12/18/2013 2:55:26 PM ~ Bebout: Public testimony closed, Moniz recused. Final vote will require majority from both bodies, amendments 6-5 vote, regardless of which body. 2:00:42 ~ 12/18/2013 2:56:28 PM ~ Meier: moved 2:00:50 ~ 12/18/2013 2:56:36 PM ~ Stubson: seconded 2:00:54 ~ 12/18/2013 2:56:40 PM ~ Harshman; Amendment, page 5, line 5, strike old language and reinsert new language 2:01:29 ~ 12/18/2013 2:57:15 PM ~ Meier: seconded 2:01:33 ~ 12/18/2013 2:57:20 PM ~ Bebout: Not compounded, 2:01:54 ~ 12/18/2013 2:57:40 PM ~ Bebout: amendment failed, 6-5 2:02:10 ~ 12/18/2013 2:57:57 PM ~ Burkhart: move 2:02:23 ~ 12/18/2013 2:58:10 PM ~ Bebout: Seconded 2:02:28 ~ 12/18/2013 2:58:14 PM ~ Burkhart: Remove COLA completely. No other pension plan allowed COLA. 2:03:08 ~ 12/18/2013 2:58:55 PM ~ Bebout: accurial soundness, split between state and cities and towns 2:03:36 ~ 12/18/2013 2:59:22 PM ~ Hastert: No, promise is a promise. 2:04:22 ~ 12/18/2013 3:00:08 PM ~ Burkhart: Private companies do not offer COLAs. COLA not warranted for any plan. 2:05:03 ~ 12/18/2013 3:00:50 PM ~ Harshman: Promises made, promises kept. 2:05:41 ~ 12/18/2013 3:01:27 PM ~ Bebout: Failed 2:05:51 ~ 12/18/2013 3:01:38 PM ~ Nicholas: page 8, what percentage of total contribution due from cities and towns? 2:06:37 ~ 12/18/2013 3:02:24 PM ~ Sommers: $35M if all parties had paid during time, 77% of state, employer would have paid 16.2% 2:07:44 ~ 12/18/2013 3:03:30 PM ~ Nicholas: Cities must pay 20% of $35M, and the state pay 80%. Not include fireman, willing to reduce COLA from 3% to 2.1%. 2:08:56 ~ 12/18/2013 3:04:42 PM ~ Bebout: 80% of obligation by state, 20% by cities and counties and fireman COLA from 3% to 2.1% 2:09:41 ~ 12/18/2013 3:05:27 PM ~ Bebout: Motion carried. 2:10:15 ~ 12/18/2013 3:06:01 PM ~ Harshaman: Section 3, page 7. Payout due July 1, 2014, and second July 1, 2015 2:10:52 ~ 12/18/2013 3:06:38 PM ~ Bebout: Carried. 2:10:56 ~ 12/18/2013 3:06:42 PM ~ Burkhart: Page 2, line 15. Change date to FY2044. 2:11:40 ~ 12/18/2013 3:07:27 PM ~ Bebout: Failed, no second 2:11:46 ~ 12/18/2013 3:07:33 PM ~ Esquibel: Money come from severance tax to permanent trust fund. 2:13:49 ~ 12/18/2013 3:09:36 PM ~ Bebout: Motion seconded, spoke against motion. Not good idea. 2:14:24 ~ 12/18/2013 3:10:10 PM ~ Bebout: Failed 2:14:59 ~ 12/18/2013 3:10:45 PM ~ Nicholas: Needs payout infornation from retirement. 2:16:37 ~ 12/18/2013 3:12:23 PM ~ Perkins: Tables affected? 2:17:08 ~ 12/18/2013 3:12:54 PM ~ Sommers: Yes. 2:17:16 ~ 12/18/2013 3:13:02 PM ~ Harshman: Thanks for coming, input important. 2:17:58 ~ 12/18/2013 3:13:44 PM ~ Nicholas: interest, compounded over simple, very similiar over timeframe. 2:18:54 ~ 12/18/2013 3:14:40 PM ~ Richards: page 4, COLA may be 5% if doing well or..... 2:19:19 ~ 12/18/2013 3:15:06 PM ~ Stubson: 2:19:27 ~ 12/18/2013 3:15:13 PM ~ Bebout: carried with 2% 2:19:39 ~ 12/18/2013 3:15:25 PM ~ Richards: roll call. Passed, 3-2 Senate; 4-2 in house. 2:21:40 ~ 12/18/2013 3:17:26 PM ~ Pause 2:21:40 ~ 12/18/2013 3:32:47 PM ~ Resume 2:21:43 ~ 12/18/2013 3:32:51 PM ~ 2:22:22 ~ 12/18/2013 3:33:30 PM ~ December 18, 2013 037-SE- State Engineer. 2:22:41 ~ 12/18/2013 3:33:49 PM ~ Bebout: welcome, instructions. 2:22:50 ~ 12/18/2013 3:33:58 PM ~ Tyrrell: Pg 3 of Handout... 2:23:45 ~ 12/18/2013 3:34:53 PM ~ bebout: pg 13 of electronic handout. 2:23:54 ~ 12/18/2013 3:35:02 PM ~ Tyrrell: charts and graphs...shows 14 year history, added 10 positions in 2003, essentially flat since 1999. Budget request ...Montana lawsuit, AG is writing briefs, no budget request related to that. 2:26:27 ~ 12/18/2013 3:37:35 PM ~ bebout: anything in general ,compact issues, 2:26:49 ~ 12/18/2013 3:37:57 PM ~ Tyrrell: Colorado River Basin, lake Powells and Mead are less than half full. Same as 2004, when 2 years away from being able to generate power. Rely on lake powell to provide power, States discussing drought contingency to protect resevoirs. 2:29:34 ~ 12/18/2013 3:40:41 PM ~ 2:29:38 ~ 12/18/2013 3:40:45 PM ~ Tyrrell: rains brought us a months supply, primary requirement under that contract is no depletion below lake powel. 2:30:05 ~ 12/18/2013 3:41:13 PM ~ Meier: Fontennell. how much lead time to try and work out a mtiigation plan? 2:30:30 ~ 12/18/2013 3:41:38 PM ~ Tyrrell: 1948 compact, among upper basin states, have obligation to curtail use, if below 75%. options: bank wawter, operation of crisp resevoir, Mr. LaBonde's .... 2:32:27 ~ 12/18/2013 3:43:34 PM ~ Meier: underground wter storage, coal bed methane resevoir, possibility to store water.. 2:32:52 ~ 12/18/2013 3:43:59 PM ~ tyrrell: Need empty space under ground to store, some coal bed water has been reinjected back into the space. It is cistern water, Water ground storage, we have no empty acquifiers so probably don't have space. 2:33:44 ~ 12/18/2013 3:44:52 PM ~ Wallis: Powder river basin dropped from litigation. 2:34:13 ~ 12/18/2013 3:45:20 PM ~ Tyrrell: only battling over the tongue river, 2:34:33 ~ 12/18/2013 3:45:41 PM ~ Bebout: 25 inch pipeline to ship water and put into boysen. What does putting in a pipeline due to a compact sytem? 2:35:13 ~ 12/18/2013 3:46:21 PM ~ Tyrrell: Probably nothing...can facilitate exchanges downstream, gener 2:35:44 ~ 12/18/2013 3:46:52 PM ~ Bebout: same as waster water 2:35:53 ~ 12/18/2013 3:47:00 PM ~ Tyrrell: by definiton yes.. 2:36:05 ~ 12/18/2013 3:47:12 PM ~ bebout; info of what water we have access to? 2:36:21 ~ 12/18/2013 3:47:28 PM ~ Tyrrell; water basin report on website. 2:36:48 ~ 12/18/2013 3:47:56 PM ~ bebout: Don get to Harry. 2:36:55 ~ 12/18/2013 3:48:03 PM ~ Tyrrell: Budget book: pg 4 base budget = 28 M. At about 80% manpower in budget. Introduction of Lanning, and Winders. page 5 = breakdowns of authority, contributions to quality of life, basic facts, Divisions: well permiting division, , surface water division., board of control, interstate streams division, ......pg 11 General org chart. Admin budget on page 12. 7 employees. federal grant monies on dam seminars, table top discussions. moneyu from water development upper colorado river fish... 2:41:17 ~ 12/18/2013 3:52:25 PM ~ Tyrrell: pg 13 and 14 - priority 5 - models of horse creek basin, conflicts between junior groundwater users and senior surface water users. horsecreek modal will be acollecting more data...As we capture info, might form another modal run or an order. Stream axquifer ineractions. 2:43:36 ~ 12/18/2013 3:54:43 PM ~ Wallis: Legality - 2:44:06 ~ 12/18/2013 3:55:14 PM ~ Tyrrell: statute 41-3-9-15 and 16 . how to administer interacton of surface and under ground water. Ex. Guernsey dam. 2:45:22 ~ 12/18/2013 3:56:29 PM ~ Perkins: Modaling - what kind of data are you using? 2:45:58 ~ 12/18/2013 3:57:05 PM ~ Tyrrell: ....explanantion of data.. aquifer parameters, 2:47:15 ~ 12/18/2013 3:58:22 PM ~ Meier: non real time monitors on wells, data points? 2:47:44 ~ 12/18/2013 3:58:52 PM ~ Tyrrell: in past had more points than today. We have 20 to 30 monitoring wells in thsi county, 18 or more in Horse Creek. 30 monitoring wells in laramie county 2:48:23 ~ 12/18/2013 3:59:30 PM ~ harshman 2:48:35 ~ 12/18/2013 3:59:42 PM ~ Meier: on portal? 2:48:44 ~ 12/18/2013 3:59:52 PM ~ Tyrrell; correct, not sure which portal 2:48:54 ~ 12/18/2013 4:00:02 PM ~ Meier: millions of dollars.. gov rec says conflict of interest. I am in the same boat. laGrange..Nebraska had a cost share program for ordering montiroing devices.. 2:50:53 ~ 12/18/2013 4:02:00 PM ~ Tyrrell: issued order ,called for regulation in basin, needed to order measuring devices, no unlike superintendents ordering devices. different because it was ag wells. 2:52:32 ~ 12/18/2013 4:03:39 PM ~ Meier: urge committee to support this. 2:53:33 ~ 12/18/2013 4:04:40 PM ~ harshman: unusual gov rec 2:53:41 ~ 12/18/2013 4:04:48 PM ~ tyrrell: ground wwater division on page 18 for 3.5 budget. std on page 19. processing permit applications for oil and gas, water permits.no exc requ 2:54:37 ~ 12/18/2013 4:05:45 PM ~ tyrrell: surface water and engineering on page 24 - 16 employees, base budget ..no excpetion request. 2:55:09 ~ 12/18/2013 4:06:17 PM ~ Tyrrell: Board of control on page 29. pg 30 = std request, 69 employees, 18-20 in cheyenne, rest in field, commissioners. Exception req on page 35 for contract hydrographer.....Gov declined, possibly due to property ownership in teton county. 2:56:45 ~ 12/18/2013 4:07:52 PM ~ STubson: consistent with last biennium, same amounts, using an exc requ. 2:57:00 ~ 12/18/2013 4:08:08 PM ~ Tyrrell: Budget reductions impacted so this is being put back in.. 2:57:52 ~ 12/18/2013 4:09:00 PM ~ Stubson: 2:57:55 ~ 12/18/2013 4:09:03 PM ~ Tyrell: yes 2:57:59 ~ 12/18/2013 4:09:06 PM ~ Tyrrell: page 36 - cutting items in budget - 200,000 cut - too skinny for replacement parts.. Superintendents feel too skinny.. 35% restoration of cuts, keep new sites up and running, Colored slides, pg 17, 18 new gauges being run now..map shows implementation over time on page 17 and 18. need spare parts, data collection platforms, batteries. Cut a yar ago, cut too deep. 2:59:55 ~ 12/18/2013 4:11:03 PM ~ Tyrrell: page 37 priority 8 - USGS training - Gov rec to remove some and we can live with that. page 38, priority 3 - exception rqu due to cost inc that are out of our control -- roughly 57-60 vehicles. 4-5 in cheyenne, rest outside of cheyenne. 3:01:41 ~ 12/18/2013 4:12:48 PM ~ Bebout: Why effective immediately, why not normal depreciation schedule? 3:01:56 ~ 12/18/2013 4:13:03 PM ~ Tyrrell: deficient by March or april.. 3:02:13 ~ 12/18/2013 4:13:21 PM ~ bebout: did no answer, why not normal depreciation schedule? Aand I should have maintenace and depreciation schedule. 3:02:41 ~ 12/18/2013 4:13:49 PM ~ Winders: not replacement, This is monthly maitenance and gas cost. 3:03:07 ~ 12/18/2013 4:14:15 PM ~ Bebout; 70,000 how spent? 3:03:15 ~ 12/18/2013 4:14:23 PM ~ Winders: go directly to aand I for costs. 3:03:26 ~ 12/18/2013 4:14:34 PM ~ Bebout: inspections, emission controls? 3:03:36 ~ 12/18/2013 4:14:44 PM ~ Winders: monthly rate with depreciation included, gasoline, car washes, maintenance, regular tune ups. 3:04:00 ~ 12/18/2013 4:15:08 PM ~ bebout: vehicles require inspections. 3:04:10 ~ 12/18/2013 4:15:18 PM ~ Tyrrell: pg 39 - proof inspection work in the field, example of type of work vehicle inspectors do. 3:04:46 ~ 12/18/2013 4:15:54 PM ~ Tyrrell: support services division on top of page 42= 3.2M, #1 priority exception request is permit maintenance. 2004-2005 we started building the sytem , allows electronic permitting, some GPS. some areas need improvement. Areas described under bullet 1 on page 45. Go into code. One time request. 3:06:31 ~ 12/18/2013 4:17:39 PM ~ Bebout: specific example: 3:06:39 ~ 12/18/2013 4:17:46 PM ~ Tyrrell: certificates of approriations, have to creat a work around to do that. 3:06:58 ~ 12/18/2013 4:18:06 PM ~ bebout; time element involved. 3:07:05 ~ 12/18/2013 4:18:13 PM ~ Tyrrell, do it by group force... 3:07:16 ~ 12/18/2013 4:18:24 PM ~ Bebout: what part of 70,000 for those. 3:07:34 ~ 12/18/2013 4:18:42 PM ~ Tyrrell: have 10 areas 3:07:42 ~ 12/18/2013 4:18:49 PM ~ lanning: General categorization. Work around is where we have the data but not the code to generate the report so download to excell spreadsheet to be able to sort. Working on documents outside of the program; Report writing; Fiancials; automatic cancellations that require letters. 3:10:00 ~ 12/18/2013 4:21:08 PM ~ Bebout: will you eliminate a staff member? 3:10:15 ~ 12/18/2013 4:21:23 PM ~ Lanning: efficiencies decrease time - permitting time. Backlog issues of permits...reassigning staff tow work backlogs, surface water donig data verification, 3:11:03 ~ 12/18/2013 4:22:11 PM ~ Bbout: will get caught up on backlog then need less people? 3:11:20 ~ 12/18/2013 4:22:27 PM ~ Lanning: efficiencies will catch up. 3:11:29 ~ 12/18/2013 4:22:37 PM ~ Bebout: 1.1 M cuts, object code..cuts not biennialized. Talk about major ones.. stream gauge - took 2100 out, want 70 back,, speak to those 3:12:07 ~ 12/18/2013 4:23:14 PM ~ Tyrrell: 400 series? 3:12:15 ~ 12/18/2013 4:23:22 PM ~ Bebout: 1.1 M reduction. 3:12:23 ~ 12/18/2013 4:23:31 PM ~ Tyrrell: no specific biennializing done after that. What was cut last year was going to be nonrecurring. not come back into budget as std budget. 3:13:05 ~ 12/18/2013 4:24:13 PM ~ richards: amounts in fy 14 are sustained, gone. object codes may not have funds to double them. Chairman/s concern, expectation that other areas would be explored for additional areas of cuts. some agencies did, this one did not. 3:13:49 ~ 12/18/2013 4:24:57 PM ~ Bebout: 0137 position, eliminate.. vacant? still vacant? 3:14:08 ~ 12/18/2013 4:25:16 PM ~ Tyrrell: yes.. 3:14:15 ~ 12/18/2013 4:25:23 PM ~ Tyrrell" page 51 - beyond support services, land services for surveyors, No GF monies, renewal fees, New practice act added two board members. request on page 52 3:15:34 ~ 12/18/2013 4:26:41 PM ~ Bebout: where did Gov plan to take the 10,000 3:15:45 ~ 12/18/2013 4:26:52 PM ~ Jones: supportive of telecom and benefits. intent to dec travel. 3:16:05 ~ 12/18/2013 4:27:12 PM ~ Bebout: take .... 3:16:13 ~ 12/18/2013 4:27:21 PM ~ Tyrrell: page 53 , credit card procesing fee, would backstop cost for extra fees. page 57 interstate streams division, 5 employees, one paid out of ... pg 61 = technical support. 3:17:47 ~ 12/18/2013 4:28:55 PM ~ bebout: 135 and 131 cut before. 3:17:57 ~ 12/18/2013 4:29:05 PM ~ Tyrrell: Gov did not recommend. pg 62 upper colorado river endangered fish recovery program. provided to us through GandF...jeopardy protection . important program. Cost of living inc.. 3:19:05 ~ 12/18/2013 4:30:13 PM ~ bebout: 91,000 in base budget page 57? 3:19:18 ~ 12/18/2013 4:30:25 PM ~ Tyrrell: Base amount appropriated and in our std budget for this program. 3:19:34 ~ 12/18/2013 4:30:42 PM ~ bebout: platte decree must do 3:19:43 ~ 12/18/2013 4:30:51 PM ~ tyrrell: under colorado program,, 3:20:23 ~ 12/18/2013 4:31:30 PM ~ bebout; ? 3:20:30 ~ 12/18/2013 4:31:37 PM ~ Tyrrell: pass through of dollars 3:20:46 ~ 12/18/2013 4:31:54 PM ~ Bebout: Norht platte settlement 3:20:53 ~ 12/18/2013 4:32:01 PM ~ tyrrell: North platte settlement on page 73= 1 employee in cheyenne, .. 3:21:35 ~ 12/18/2013 4:32:42 PM ~ Meier: wells, ? 3:21:42 ~ 12/18/2013 4:32:50 PM ~ Tyrrell: yes good. Inland lakes in NB are almost full. do not anticipate lake probems in the spring. 3:22:20 ~ 12/18/2013 4:33:27 PM ~ meier; in terms of employees, converting data. 3:22:38 ~ 12/18/2013 4:33:45 PM ~ Tyrrell: one person, commissioners. Priamry person on waterwel pumps is Kelly. 3:22:55 ~ 12/18/2013 4:34:03 PM ~ meier: in there for a good number of years, have done all the work that is needed? Point in time where we can stairstep down employees? 3:23:30 ~ 12/18/2013 4:34:37 PM ~ Tyrrell: continuing obligation, annual report, mapping yearly, Lost af ew positions gained in 2003 in the budget cuts.. 3:24:35 ~ 12/18/2013 4:35:43 PM ~ Tyrrell: well drillers, licensing board. AWAC employee. page 77, excep req approved by Gov.25 from each well application goes into the board acct.. Administrator is AWAC - only board admin who is not a state employee..equity standpoint, make position full time. 68,000. 3:26:26 ~ 12/18/2013 4:37:33 PM ~ Bebout: all comes from Spec Revenue from fees? 3:26:37 ~ 12/18/2013 4:37:44 PM ~ tyrrell: 25 fee - regulated community paying for board - std number of permits (coal bed exempted) dropped so funding dec and is probably insufficient is position is made permanent. Discussion of changing 25 to 50 fee. 3:28:02 ~ 12/18/2013 4:39:10 PM ~ Bebout: fee for? 3:28:08 ~ 12/18/2013 4:39:15 PM ~ Tyrrell: fee for groundwater drilling 3:28:27 ~ 12/18/2013 4:39:35 PM ~ bebout: ag committee, discussion of raising fees. 3:29:00 ~ 12/18/2013 4:40:07 PM ~ Meier: Cell phones, blue tooth technology in trucks? good customer outreach req cell phones? 3:29:37 ~ 12/18/2013 4:40:44 PM ~ Tyrrell - mix of state cell phones, lots of guys use their own , do not have bluetooth devices in rigs in Cheyenne. 3:30:05 ~ 12/18/2013 4:41:12 PM ~ bebout: thanks and closing.. worry about the colorado river, next challenge. 3:30:25 ~ 12/18/2013 4:41:32 PM ~ 3:30:37 ~ 12/18/2013 4:41:44 PM ~ Pause 3:30:37 ~ 12/18/2013 4:45:40 PM ~ Resume 3:30:44 ~ 12/18/2013 4:45:48 PM ~ 023 - PSC - Public Service Commission Alan Minier, Commission Chairman Darrell Zlonike, Commission Administrator Bryce Freeman Chris Petrie, Secretary and Chief Council Kathy Lewis, Commission Member Steve Oxley, Commission Member Upcoming year will bring lots of rates increase applications by various power companies statewide. 3:34:56 ~ 12/18/2013 4:50:00 PM ~ Bebout: Coal fired generation 3:36:43 ~ 12/18/2013 4:51:47 PM ~ Minier: WY to reduce greenhouse gases by certain % by a certain date as requested by EPA. EPA and industry assured that useful lives of plants would be taken into consideration. Degree to which EPA allows WY to do accounting of plant life. 3:43:08 ~ 12/18/2013 4:58:12 PM ~ Meier: Cost of transmission? 3:43:23 ~ 12/18/2013 4:58:27 PM ~ Minier: No. Generation and transmission by PacifiCorp. Can only approve so many rate increases. 3:47:31 ~ 12/18/2013 5:02:35 PM ~ Minier: Slight increase in personnel costs, using 2.1853 mils in 2013. 3:49:13 ~ 12/18/2013 5:04:17 PM ~ Bebout: Employee numbers not rising, internal controls 3:50:20 ~ 12/18/2013 5:05:24 PM ~ Minier: Try to maintain consistency, travel costs more, as pipeline inspectors, and participate in multi-state organizations. Small amounts for travel for out-of-state hearings. 3:51:42 ~ 12/18/2013 5:06:46 PM ~ Bebout: 10% cut still in place? 3:51:53 ~ 12/18/2013 5:06:57 PM ~ Minier: Lost administrative position, replaced with 2 lower funded. 3:53:18 ~ 12/18/2013 5:08:22 PM ~ Minier: Exception request, software development, ETS, cloud utilization instead of servers. Software licenses important, especially ARC GIS, additional license and statistical anaylsis license. 3:55:34 ~ 12/18/2013 5:10:37 PM ~ Minier: Page 12, docket management system. Allows for electronic filing for applicant. 3:56:27 ~ 12/18/2013 5:11:30 PM ~ Minier: Phone replacement, IT enabled system. 3:57:35 ~ 12/18/2013 5:12:39 PM ~ Minier: Office of consumer advocate, phones. 3:57:54 ~ 12/18/2013 5:12:58 PM ~ Bebout: Consumer advocate office, 6 employees, quantify benefit 3:58:34 ~ 12/18/2013 5:13:38 PM ~ Minier: Annual report which lists cases dealt with. 3:59:08 ~ 12/18/2013 5:14:12 PM ~ Freeman: Consumer Advocacy Office. Annual report to keep legislators informed. Represent interests of consumers in contested hearings before PSC, perform consumer outreach about rates. Cost is $.05/customer. 4:03:09 ~ 12/18/2013 5:18:13 PM ~ Bebout: Process? 4:05:34 ~ 12/18/2013 5:20:38 PM ~ Freeman: Represent individual consumers, or industrial users. Reports to Governor Mead. 4:06:32 ~ 12/18/2013 5:21:36 PM ~ Nicholas: Invaluable service provided. 4:06:53 ~ 12/18/2013 5:21:57 PM ~ Minier: Universal Service 4:09:00 ~ 12/18/2013 5:24:04 PM ~ Bebout: Pleasure of committee to pass, seconded, report to legislature. 4:10:46 ~ 12/18/2013 5:25:49 PM ~ Bebout: Amendments? 4:10:51 ~ 12/18/2013 5:25:55 PM ~ Richards: page 19, section 3, not removing report. 4:11:41 ~ 12/18/2013 5:26:45 PM ~ Bebout: Not remove report; seconded. 4:11:50 ~ 12/18/2013 5:26:53 PM ~ Bebout: Not go out for professional bids by governor's office. Involved attorneys, large amount of monies to monitor elected officials. 4:12:36 ~ 12/18/2013 5:27:40 PM ~ Bebout: Amendment carried. 4:12:46 ~ 12/18/2013 5:27:50 PM ~ Meier: Biennial budget request, narrative for exception 4:13:21 ~ 12/18/2013 5:28:25 PM ~ Meier: page 18, biennial report submitted, if exception request during supplemental budget year. 4:14:30 ~ 12/18/2013 5:29:34 PM ~ Bebout: Lay back bill for potential amendment. 4:14:44 ~ 12/18/2013 5:29:47 PM ~ Richards: Stand alone report? 4:14:53 ~ 12/18/2013 5:29:56 PM ~ Bebout: Yes. 4:15:04 ~ 12/18/2013 5:30:08 PM ~ Stop Recording